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Post by Jay Simkin on Nov 17, 2009 23:09:34 GMT -5
"But there is no constitutional right to be protected by the state against being murdered by criminals or madmen. It is monstrous if the state fails to protect its residents against such predators, but it does not violate the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment or, we suppose, any other provision of the Constitution." (Bowers v. Devito, 686 F2d 616 [1982]).
Not even the beneficiary of a "restraining order" has a right to police protection (Town of Castle Rock CO v. Gonzales, 545 US 748 [2005]). So held the US Supreme Court on 27 June 2005.
As police have no duty to protect the average person, the self-defens use of firearms is a basic life skill. To reject Members, who want to acquire or to hone these skills, is wrong.
We should allow shooting until 6 p.m. during the winter months. As windows are closed, noise is not an issue. Most self-defense use of firearms will take place in the dark.
The Club should encourage all forms of shooting, that Members want to try: from Olympic events to Cowboy Action to defensive shooting to big game hunting. The Club should be a "broad church", whose Members share a devotion to safe shooting. If the activity can be done safely, and someone wants to do it, then so be it.
The recurring safety violations can be best be cured by training. We need to encourage new Members, who are also new to shooting, to get trained. The untrained put all of us at risk. If we need to raise the dues, so we can afford to get newcomers trained, that is smart money!!
Yours faithfully,
Jay E. Simkin
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Post by M1Riflenut on Nov 19, 2009 6:24:12 GMT -5
"If it ain't broke,don't fix it" 30 minutes after sunset has always worked before,why change it now? IMHO,1800 is no good either during the summer as it will be before sunset. I vote to stick with what has worked all these years. What else was discussed and how many people showed up?
I had to go to the funeral service for a good friend at work whom I've worked with for the last 23 years. At age 54 he lost his battle with cancer. He was cremated,no traditional funneral,just a wake from 6-8pm,so no there was no safety meeting for me.
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Post by M1Riflenut on Nov 19, 2009 16:48:43 GMT -5
I think we should keep the hours we now have and also consider allowing some use after hours if requested. I don't think it should be a free for all though, it should be by request so there is some control over it or we could end up with all sorts of problems. What are the state/local laws regarding this,if any? Any town noise ordinance issues with it? I'm also thinking that it maybe should be limited to the pistol range as shooting after dark on the rifle range will surely cause problems with the neighbors. Handguns on the pistol range will not be as loud as someone shooting highpower at the 50/100 range. The 25 yd pistol range should be adequate for defensive training even with shotguns or rifle. Any further than that and you probably should'nt be shooting at anyone defensively anyway.
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Post by Jay Simkin on Nov 19, 2009 21:40:09 GMT -5
Dear Fellow Club Members,
May this find You well. The rule limiting shooting to a set time after sunset, is based on NH Fish and Game rules. Out in the woods, once sunlight fades, it is not safe to shoot. One cannot be sure of the target: whether it is fair game, a non-game animal, or a person. When sunlight fades, one cannot be sure what is beyond the target, even if one is certain that the target is fair game. Even top-notch night-vision equipment cannot overcome all of these obstacles. So, when sunlight fades, hunters secure their firearms.
On a shooting range the berm provides sure knowledge as to what is beyond the target. Lights - hand-held or firearm-mounted - allow the target to be seen clearly. Thus, there is no reason to continue a sunset-based shooting curfew. Rather, the time at which shooting should end, has to do with being kind to neighbors.
One would not want to shoot at so late an hour, that a neighbor could not get a fair night's sleep. Thus, one should go silent not later than 10 p.m. In mid-year, when days are the longest, that would be just 90 minutes after sunset.
On 20 June 2010, the US Naval Observatory (http://www.usno.navy.mil/USNO/astronomical-applications/data-services/rs-one-day-us)calculates sunset in Litchfield will be at 8:28 p.m. As things stand, one would have to cease fire at 8:58 p.m. If we had a 10 p.m. deadline, an additional hour of range use would be possible.
If it is permissible to shoot until 9 p.m. in the Summer, when windows are more likely to be open, why can we not shoot until 9 p.m. in the winter, when windows tend to be closed? Indeed, why should we not be able to shoot until 10 p.m., year-round?
It is the case, that most self-defense uses of fireams occur when it is dark. Practicing, when it is dark, is the only way to build competence. Competence in a shooter is a good thing. The Club would be a safer place, if we could improve shooter competence.
Yours faithfully,
Jay E. Simkin
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Post by travis on Nov 21, 2009 11:43:51 GMT -5
I say just keep it the way it is now. Why not? Has there been complaints or unsafe practices happening? I have always believed in "don't fix it it it ain't broke".
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Post by st19575 on Nov 21, 2009 20:26:22 GMT -5
this thing about the hours is a dialog that will have to continue until more members can speak their opinion on the question. none of us get to go as much as we want to, adult life just gets in the way. i personally think that if someone is equipped for shooting in low light or no light situations and it's a disipline they want to develop they really have no other option than using the club facilities. using the 25 for that seems reasonable. i could even go as far as seeing the 50 used with weapons like lit ar types. i don't own anything that's lit at this point, but if the equipment was there i would like to see the oportunity to use it there exist
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Post by LFGC Board Admin on Nov 28, 2009 22:42:00 GMT -5
I understand the points that are made advocating for the offering of after dark shooting conditions. However, I do not agree with the assertion that the Board frowns upon Self Defense. Simply not true. To say they (The Board) frown upon it, is to say they might as well be totally against the second amendment.
In such a discussion, it is often lost that LFGC is a "Fish & Game" Club, first and foremost. The majority of its membership are sportsmen..hunters and fishermen. Albeit, the LFGC certainly accomodates other activities, directly related or not, in that non-hunting shooters are welcomed as members on an equal footing with those who are hunters. All are welcome if such accomodation does not substantially alter the mission of the club.
I gave sincere thought to after dark shooting while the topic was being discussed. While the LFGC truly desires to have a wide umbrella, the reality is that the LFGC cannot accomodate all aspects, be it for safety, or community or operational reasons.
Another thought about all these so-called "safety violations". I have been Club President for five years. I have spent considerable time at the club and often times many members don't know who I am. I have seen the MAJORITY of our membership use our ranges, handling firearms safely, responsibly and behaving collegially toward one another. Personally I think the problem is grossly overstated and unfortunately there are some who see demons that aren't there.
This is a mere observation and not a criticism but anecdotally, it appears that our sportsmen are considerably more invested in the success of the club than the tactical shooters tend to be. This is based on who shows up at work parties and who doesn't. Moreover, many of the tactical shooters give a reason for joining the club as merely a, "place to shoot". As I stated previously, LFGC welcomes them with open arms, but I would humbly ask how fair it is for those folks to come into a club alter the overall mission, theme and culture?
To say (or otherwise imply) LFGC reject members for anything other than the standard stuff (being a criminal) is disappointing. Whether Cowboy action or tactical or IDPA, the shooting hours were long ago established in keeping with the Fish & Game Hunting laws. Unlike many other clubs, we do not have electricity, general lighting, staffing or other related infrastructure to create an enviroment where members can shoot in the dark. Most aspects of our club operate on the presumption that members using the facilities do not need to be babysat.
While I think there would be largely little problem expanding our fall hours to 6:00 PM, I think this would prove to be problematic for a small core of our membership and the intent of it would be abused.
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Post by LFGC Board Admin on Nov 28, 2009 23:31:47 GMT -5
"If it ain't broke,don't fix it" 30 minutes after sunset has always worked before,why change it now? IMHO,1800 is no good either during the summer as it will be before sunset. I vote to stick with what has worked all these years. What else was discussed and how many people showed up? About 18 people showed up at the Meeting. Much of the changes proposed were nothing substantive. Regardless of whether or not the changes are/were substantive, they have to be voted on the by the membership body. yea or nay... Personally, I don't think any of the changes are needed. the bulk of it was mickey mousing around with language. Some folks like to split hairs and be crative with the Englsih Language.
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